Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Of course one has faith in Christ, but it better be backed up by works according to James.

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.Mt 16:27For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.There is a balance Joe. Your statements above are too one sided, even them out a bit. 

Taken out of context I can see how you can arrive at that position. For that person who as been born again from above by the Holy Spirit, Christ conduct will be accounted to them, 

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

For the person who dies apart from Christ or believing they have to merit Christ’s grace yes they will be repaid according to their conduct.

Your statement here just directly contradicted the verses I posted.

This is the statement I’m referring to that is in contradiction to the Ephesians verses I posted:

sjdemoor85CollapseOf course one has faith in Christ, but it better be backed up by works according to James.

You got to look at the whole of scripture, not just Paul. Look at James too. Don’t shy away from Hebrew, Isaiah, or the Gospels either. Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Looking at the scriptures as a whole both Old Testament and New Testament, it is clear that in terms of achieving our salvation it is all of Christ and none of us. It is also clear that if you believe that you in someway participate with faith in the hopes of earning grace, you do not have Christ or His grace.

Joe, the Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17). This is the Bible, and this is the Catholic Church Joe. Read for yourself in Scripture. 

To your question:  ”Do our works mean anything?”  Yes, and amen.  Our works exemplify and testify to the work of salvation, justification, and transformation done in our hearts by Christ.  

Matthew 25:31-46 – True saving faith will be exemplified by good works.  The distinction here is Christ making it clear to us that true saving faith will necessarily be exemplified by works (not earned by them).  There will be those in the judgement who call out to Christ that they believed, but he will show them by their own actions that they did not.  - Not that they did not do the work of their own salvation, but that they never actually had a true saving faith in Christ.  If good works are a necessarily result of our salvation, then the lack of works on the part of a professing believer would indicate that they are not actually a believer.  

Matthew 15:18-20 - That’s an interesting one for you to bring in as support for your position.  It does not actually directly address works, but if we do take what implications it would have regarding works, I would say it supports my position, not yours.  What Jesus is teaching here is that defiles a person is an evil heart, not what they eat or how they eat it.  This is an argument against legalism which works based salvation is.  

James 3:6-12  – Once again, James is showing what ought exemplify saving faith.  If we bless the Father and curse our neighbor with the same tongue, this suggests Christ is not in us.  In no way does this imply that so long as we control our tongues we can earn our salvation.  In fact, I think if you take this with the Matthew verse it shows quite the opposite.  Eventually our works will prove out our heart, and our heart can only be made new by faith alone.  

By God’s gracious gift of faith we are made new, as a new creation in relationship with God, our hearts pour out in gratitude and glory to God for what he has done and one of the ways this gratitude for salvation is expressed is good works.  

When God grants the gift of salvation through faith in Christ it can never be removed,

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You have been telling me and holding fast to the position that works are required for salvation. If you don’t want to use the word “earn” thats fine but that is exactly what your saying when you add a requirement to Salvation other then Grace through Faith in Christ. 

Thank you, I think I have a clearer understanding of your position.  I believe you are saying that salvation is a gift from God, but it can be lost if a believer does not perform good works?  

If that is your position, I do still disagree with you.  

I’m not quite sure how James 1:17 is teaching that salvation can be lost.  If you back up to James 1:12 you see:

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 

If God has already promised the crown of life to those who love him, then it is those who love him who will remain steadfast under trial.  We love God when Christ has given us a new heart that enables us to do so, so all who are saved by faith will love God and will remain steadfast in trial – God has promised us we will.  Again, this should not be taken to indicate works as a necessary component of salvation, nor a necessarily component to complete salvation.  The trial in question is a proving to us of our faith.  

We must reconcile verses like this with teachings such as Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 3:1-6.  

If scripture clearly teaches that God predestined those who would be saved, then the actions of those who would be saved cannot be a determining factor in their salvation.  The passage from James you mentioned above reconciles quite well with Romans and Ephesians.  What we see as testing is God showing us the results of our faith.  

posting at the top Chuck.

1 John 2:19 gives us clarity on these passages.

Actually it is not the same thing, but that’s for another forum that I will start here in a minute. 

The Bible does not say that. It says beware of your actions after you have faith in Christ. This is very clear throughout the Gospels. 

Post what?

Seth,

There are several scriptures mentioned below by Joe and I, and in one case by you, that support the interpretation both Joe and I feel are biblicaly correct.  I would be interested in reading your interpretation of them.  Specifically:

Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 8:29-30

Heading out to TX for work, I’ll reply tonight in Austin. Thanks Chuck for your charity in this discussion. 

Let me know if your going to be in the Dallas area.

I would but Chuck has already posted it for us.

James 2:26 ESV

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

This verse actually very clear supports we’ve been showing you in all the other scriptures this whole time.

Lets observe, James is making a comparison to living, saving faith and dead non saving faith, he uses a dead body and a living one as an analogy. Note the distinction he draws a body without a spirit inside it is dead, likewise faith without works stemming from it is dead faith. The sign that a body is living is the spirit inside it, the sign that faith is living is the works stemming from it.

Chuck, you said: “If God has already promised the crown of life to those who love him, then it is those who love him who will remain steadfast under trial. ”

What, in your opinion, does it mean to “love God”?

Correction – I said ”
salvation by faith through grace.  ”  I meant “salvation by grace through faith”

Why do you think he was making a comparison or analogy? I nowhere see that conclusion. Especially since James backs up his statement by proving his point further by quoting the Old Testament: 
“Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”

Look at that last sentence, how can you say that is an analogy?

Chuck, we can go back and forth with scripture, but what about the big picture, can we forget James? 

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.What do you think of this Chuck?

I agree Seth lets not go back and forth, how about instead of that you address the 2 passages Chuck mentioned?

Ephisians 2:8-9
Romans 8:29-30

I’m not sure why you would see my response as “going back and forth with scripture”.  Honestly, if we are able to “go back and forth with scripture” then that would tend to suggest that the scriptures we are going back and forth with both have something to say on the topic at hand.  If that is the case, then we MUST be considerate of ALL scripture relevant to the topic.  In no way, and at no time have I or do I wish to “forget James”.  James is scripture, it must be fearfully, prayerfully, and humbly approached considered and accounted in any interpretation.  The same goes for Romans, Ephesians, Isaiah, Genesis, etc.   

So far, in this conversation what I have honestly tried to do is answer your questions by consulting James AND other scriptures – I have not tried to discount or deny James in favor of other scripture.  

Lets look at this metaphorically.  Lets say you and I are trying to program a VCR.  I have the page with instructions on how to plug it in, and you have the page with instructions on how to program a recording.  If you or I ONLY look at the page each of us has, we are not going to get anywhere.  Your going to say “plug in?  who needs to plug in?  This page clearly says all you have to do is push these buttons and it will work.”  I’m going to say “no, all you have to do is plug it in!” and we get no where.  

To program the VCR, we are going to have to look at BOTH pages, as well as all the other pages to understand the full context of what must be done.  

The same goes for our discussion.  What I’ve been doing is communicating the doctrine that I believe the bible teaches from ALL of the scriptures we have been discussing, James, Ephesians, and Romans.  

This is why I’ve asked for your views on the Ephesians and Romans scriptures both Joe and I have mentioned.  I have a very clear understanding of your interpretation of James, but I do not think you have taken the other scriptures into context.  However, I do not want to make bad assumptions.  This is why I’ve asked for your views on the other scriptures.  My understanding of James is one that harmonizes with the other scriptures we’ve discussed.  Your understanding of James is one that is in conflict with my understanding of the other scriptures.  

There are a few possibilities.  1.  You’ve done what you seem to be assuming I’ve done, only in reverse.  You are leaning on James and ignoring the other passages.  2.  You have a different understanding of the other scriptures that IS in concert with your understanding of James.  3.  Some possibility I’ve not considered :)

This is why I’ve asked for your understanding of the Ephesians and Romans passages I mentioned.  I am very clear on your 
interpretation of James.  I think I’ve been very clear on my 
interpretation of James, Ephesians, and Romans TOGETHER.  

If you have a different view on Romans and Ephesians, I think we may still have some healthy fruitful discussion ahead of us.  If on the other hand you are not giving consideration to other passages that speak on the same doctrine and are only considering James, I would invite you to spend some time in study of Romans and Ephesians as I think you might find some deep insights by doing so.  

Agreed with your statement above for the most part. I will just say that humanity’s pursuit of truth happens to be called philosophy. So I brought up Calvinism, Arminianism, and Thomism to attempt to understand your framework toward Eph & Rom better, that’s all. 

With regards to Eph, Rom, and James, I reconcile the three with an analogy that I am sure you have heard of T-U-L-I-P. It is just the best way that my fallen human nature has found for attempting to wrap my mind around truth, which is Christ. 

TULIP = 

T=total inability (to please God without special grace)
U=unconditional election 
L=limited intent (for the atonement’s efficacy)
I=intrinsically efficacious grace (for salvation)
P=perseverance of the elect (until the end of life)

Chuck & Joe, this is my view that I think blends Eph, Rom, James, and many others all into one cohesive story of salvation.  Rather than separating faith & works, Catholics believe in Grace, Predestination (but different than your notion), and Perseverance or prove it to me; which I’m guessing is where you drop off. 

This has been the Catholic view of salvation from the get go, but has been developed doctrinally and theologically over the hundreds of years. Have you heard of TULIP? What are your thoughts toward it? If there are letters you do not agree with, which are they? I have a guess, but… Or would you ad letters?

If you could create an Acronym like this to explain your view that would help me understand.

I’m very familiar with the TULIP of Calvinism – which only differers slightly with regard to how you’ve worded the meaning of the mnemonic.  

For clerity’s sake:

T – Total Depravity – every part of our nature is mared by sin and thus no man is able to or will approach or desire God in our natural state
U – Unconditional Election – God chose from eternity past who He would draw to himself, not based on merit or vertue of the person, but based only on his mercy. 
L – Limited Atonement - Though Christ’s atonement for sin is sufficient to cover all sin by all man kind, it is only applied to those whom God calls to himself.  
I - Irresistible Grace – God’s grace is effectually applied to those whom he chooses to call, and will – in His timing - be saved by this grace through faith in Jesus.  
P – Perseverance of the Saints - since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end.

To be clear, I am using the word saints in a different sense than I assume you would use it.  I believe the bible teaches that the word “saints” referes to any person who God has called to himself.  This is just by way of clarification and I don’t want to get off topic.  If you prefer, read that as “Perseverance of Those Who God has Called”.  

I also affirm that the doctrines described here in are the clearest understanding of what the bible reveals to us.  I would not be opposed if someone calls me a five point calvinist.  

So, from that understanding – If passages such as those Joe and I have referenced teach us that God has predestined the elect before creation according to his mercy, and NOT according to our merit, and teaching that those who God calls WILL respond, and that those who he has predestined will persevere to the end – then I do not see how your view on James can be reconciled with these views.  

Now, James is scripture, and all scripture is God breathed.  We cannot ignore or invalidate it but we must let scripture interpret scripture.  Fortunately, Romans 8:29 gives us some help:

” For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
(Romans 8:29 ESV)

Specifically, “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son”.  

This tells us that those whom God has called WILL be conformed to the image of his Son – Jesus Christ.  Good works are absolutely a part of Christ’s image.  What better work is there than being born a man to live a perfect life and die in atonement of our sin!?  Jesus did this to bring glory to His Father.  Our good works are a part of sanctification – a part of our being brought into conformity to the image of Jesus.  We do good works to bring glory to God – NOT to try and earn his approval.  Our salvation is assured, but the process WILL absolutely with out question result in good works for the purpose of bringing glory to God.  

So what does this mean about James?  If salvation is so assured, if our works are no part of earning or maintaining it, then why is James so emphatic about the importance of our works?  

Two reasons. 

First, false conversion.  Jesus warns us of false conversion – Revelation 3:14-22, Matthew 7:21-23.  The indication here seems to be that many who profess faith but do not have it, do not know themselves that their faith is dead.  James is telling us to test our faith.  Paul councils us the same way in Philippians 2:12-13.  James is giving us a very practical, visible test.  Do you bare fruit?  If you do not bare fruit, your faith is dead and not a saving faith.  If so, repent of your sin!  Pray that Christ would now come in to your heart and that he would give his Spirit to bring about a true saving faith and a desire to be more like Him.  

Second, as believers we are called to be discerning as necessary about those around us.  No – we are not called to judge.  We do not, and cannot know who is or is not amongst God’s elect.  We do not judge who is worthy of the crown of glory, but we are called to be discerning between who is our brother and who is still lost.   We must be careful because we are also called to unity and in no way do we look to find every possible reason to deny brotherhood with another person claiming to be a believer.  We must NOT break unity over minor disagreements, or worldly topics.  But the quality of our relationship with our brothers and sisters in Christ is very different than the quality of our relationship with the lost around us.  This is, if for no other reason, because we are commanded to bring the gospel to the lost!  How are we to bring the gospel to the lost if we do not know who they are?  In many cases – 2/3rds of the worlds population in fact, this is easy.  They simply have not heard the gospel, or if they have, they have rejected it out right.  But what about the false convert around us?  What about the “good moral person” who goes to church and lives in a life ruled by secret sin and walks in anger all their days?  Do we, just because they speak the words and show up, assume that they are “saved enough”?  Not at all!  James is teaching us here.  He is showing us a way we will know our brother.  Not just by their words, but by their actions.  We will see the true saving faith they posses pour out good works for the glory of God, and their joy.  

The issue of works is critically important.  They are the most visible sign by which a follower of Christ will be recognized by the world and by other believers.  They are a part of our sanctification and our being conformed to the image of Jesus.  They are how we bring glory to God our father.  They are not, and James does not teach that that they are, a means of earning or ensuring salvation.  

We see this in James 2:22, which we have discussed at length.  

“You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;”(James 2:22 ESV)

“faith was completed by his works” – but catch what he says:  FAITH was completed, not salvation.  Saving faith, living faith, complete faith, will necessarily be faith that WILL result in good works.  This does NOT say “salvation was completed by works”.  Salvation was completed by Christ when he suffered death on a cross as a propitiation for our sins.  As Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.By grace we are saved – our salvation is complete in God’s grace, His gift.  This is accomplished through faith.  And true faith, faith by which salvation occurs, is faith that WILL result in an outpouring of works.  So yes, it is well to join James in saying that works complete our FAITH, as they are the necessary result, or the completion.  But they do not complete our Salvation.  Jesus did that, praise his Name!

So you believe in the P of TULIP? 

P=perseverance of the elect (until the end of life) ???

&

Could you explain Doctrine of Grace?

&

Does every T-U-L-I-P letter carry equal weight for you?

That was a lot to chew Chuck. Can’t respond to it all now, so just 1 point for the time being. 

Back to James, going to capitalize key words to look at:

“You see that his faith and his actions were working TOGETHER, and his faith was MADE COMPLETE by what he DID.”

How can you believe in sola fide, when James says ‘working together’? What does the language, ‘working together,’ imply Chuck?

Two separate entities. Agreed Chuck? 

Think of it as faith being one person, and works another person, and the two people, according to James, must hug to be COMPLETE. 

I know you’re going to say that works overflows from one’s faith, but then you are disagreeing with James’ assessment of “working together” and therefore the Bible, and then God since he inspired it. 

James did not say “…his faith led to an overflow of actions…”

WORKING TOGETHER is the key point here. 

Also of note is at the end, it is these works you are trusting in, if you say to Him Lord Lord did I not do many works you your name? He will say to you depart He NEVER knew you, you worker of lawlessness.
If however God grants that you believe and He gives you the faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that he lived a perfect sinless life that we could not, that he died a sacrificial death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, absorbing that wrath of God that we deserve, and in his resurrection is your only hope you will be saved, and as a result of that work of the Holy Spirit you will be changed.

Quoting Seth to keep the conversation straight:

—begin quote —
That was a lot to chew Chuck. Can’t respond to it all now, so just 1 point for the time being. Back to James, going to capitalize key words to look at:”You see that his faith and his actions were working TOGETHER, and his faith was MADE COMPLETE by what he DID.”How can you believe in sola fide, when James says ‘working together’? What does the language, ‘working together,’ imply Chuck?Two separate entities. Agreed Chuck? Think of it as faith being one person, and works another person, and the two people, according to James, must hug to be COMPLETE. I know you’re going to say that works overflows from one’s faith, but then you are disagreeing with James’ assessment of “working together” and therefore the Bible, and then God since he inspired it. James did not say “…his faith led to an overflow of actions…”WORKING TOGETHER is the key point here. 
— end quote —

Side note – I have been using capitalization in the same sense you described above – for emphasis, not for “internet yelling”, so thank you for clarifying that

So in the scripture you are working from, we see:  ”You see that his faith and his actions were working TOGETHER, and his faith was MADE COMPLETE by what he DID.”

James is making two truth claims here.  

1.  Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together.
2.  Abraham’s faith was made complete by what he did.  (“what he did” being the actions referred to in 1.  )

So if we affirm that all scripture is truth, then any understanding we have of the relationship between faith and works MUST agree with both of these truth claims, yes?  

You said “Two separate entities. Agreed Chuck?”  
My answer is – no.  Here is why, lets tests your interpretation against each truth claim.  

1.  Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together – is this in concert with his faith and actions being two separate entities? Yes.  So testing against truth claim one passed.  

2.  Abraham’s faith was made complete by his actions – is this in concert with his faith and actions being two separate entities?  No.  So testing against truth claim two failed.  

It fails because, if faith and works as James is referring to them are two separate entities, then one cannot be necessary to complete the other.  If works are a necessary part of a complete faith, then faith and works cannot be viewed as separate entities.  

Lets take another example.  Lets say I tell you “Frank and Alvin were working together.  Frank was made complete by Alvin”.  It’s not sensible.  

Or as you put it:  ”Think of it as faith being one person, and works another person, and the two people, according to James, must hug to be COMPLETE. ”

Really?  Hug to be complete?  No, I can’t see that.  Don’t get me wrong, hugging is a great expression of joy, but when two people hug neither of them is more or less “complete” than before.  

However, if I say “My car and it’s motor were working together.  My car was made complete by it’s motor” – that is perfectly intelligible.  

Are my car and it’s motor “separate entities”?  Well in some sense yes, but in the sense we are speaking not at all. Also, a car WITHOUT a motor is qualitatively different than a car WITH a motor.  A car without a motor is incomplete, dead and useless.  

If we understand faith and works to be separate entities then our understanding is in conflict with James’s second truth claim.  

However, just as a motor bearing car is a complete useful car, fruit bearing faith is complete salvific faith.  

My interpretation then is:  Not two separate entities, but living faith that necessarily results in works.  Let’s test it:

1.  Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together – living faith that necessarily results in works?  yes both faith and works are present, so we can say that both are working together, even though they are not separate entities.  

2.  Abraham’s faith was made complete by his actions – living faith that necessarily results in works?  yes  the latter is a necessary component that completes living faith.  

Lastly I want to address your reference to sola fide.  The doctrine of sola fide says that salvation is by faith alone.  The passage you are referencing here is regarding faith.  Again, as I’ve said before.  James IS saying that faith is completed by works.  He is NOT saying that salvation is completed by works.  The faith that Jesus gives us when we confess him Lord and accept his complete and fully sufficient atonement for our sin – that faith WILL feature works.  And we will see that faith completed in our lives over the course of our sanctification by the works our joyful response to His salvation of us cause.  

Seth said:”So you believe in the P of TULIP? P=perseverance of the elect (until the end of life) ???&Could you explain Doctrine of Grace?&Does every T-U-L-I-P letter carry equal weight for you?”
–end quote.

I’ll answer part 1 and 3 of your post together and handle part 2 separately:
Parts 1 & 3: I’m really not interested in discussing the ins and outs of an acronym, even an acronym I personally agree (I’m referring to the acronym developed by the followers of Calvin in response to Arminian theology) What I am interested in is what does the Bible teach? and Does what I believe line up with that it teaches? If what I believe does not line up with I believe does not line up with what the Bible teaches no matter who taught it to me, I must change.

The term “Doctrines of Grace” another way of referring to TULIP I prefer this term verse the acronym because its a more descriptive label then some ambiguous flower. This link is helpful because there are scripture references in order for you to see for yourself that this is what the Bible teaches.
http://www.the-highway.com/doctrinesofgrace.html

Last sentence in response to Parts 1 &3 For clarity:
If what I believe does not line up with what the Bible teaches no matter who taught it to me, I must change.

I apologize for the formatting here.  I wrote it in a separate app and the paragraphs were not preserved.  

Exactly Joe, the faith was shown to be alive, active and genuine. Without the works, the faith was dead. They dovetail in the Catholic Church’s position, and your Protestant position thinks they are separated. 

You need to check again its the second to last piont begins with P.

If you wish to end the discussion does that mean you now understand that the Bible teaches works are not a requirement for salvation, but they are the neccessary result of genuine, saving faith in a person’s life?

As I said in my comment – I typed in a separate application and the forum here did not preserve the formatting.  I’m not retyping it, but I would be happy to email you a copy of the original if you would like.  

Preservation & Perseverance are very different. Is your P standing for Preservation. If so, I would have to disagree. If it stands for Perseverance, then I agree.

I think what Joe is saying he believes, and what I believe is:

But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you.(Isaiah 43:1-3 ESV)

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.(Jeremiah 32:40 ESV)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:35-39 ESV)

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV)

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.(1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 ESV)

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.(Jude 1:24-25 ESV)

going to the top Chuck.

So Chuck, you tossed out a ton of verses below in support of Sola Fide. That is fine, but…

I don’t think we can have this conversation until we get over Sola Scriptura. I believe that you are reading from an heretical bible. Joe and I already went through this discussion, which I believe is critical to our discussion. Why? How can we toss scripture back and forth at each other when it is coming from two completely different books. 

Joe stated earlier that b/c protestant bibles took out 7 books does not effect the topic of sola fide or sola scriptura sense those books don’t really talk about those subjects. (am I wrong Joe?)

But then we are not staying true to the belief that we must look at the entire story of Sacred Scripture (72 books in my opinion), instead of just picking and choosing quotes here and there. 

Which I am going to start a new thread at this link: http://onebillionstories.com/8912/where-did-the-bible-come-from/

You are wrong, I NEVER said protestants took 7 works of inspired scripture away from the rest of inspired scripture, what was removed is not scripture. How about instead of trying to side step and invalidate the scriptures we’ve been bringing up you actually examine the scriptures for yourself and see if that is what they actually say. As I’ve told you a thousand times in previous discussions, don’t take my word for it and for that matter don’t take Chuck’s word for it either. If you’d prefer we can switch to a catholic authorized translation for the sake of having you not dodge our responses.

Joe, I know it is a side step, a very important one indeed. I tried to convey this weeks ago that we most get to the bottom of what Bible is valid before we even talk about it’s content; neither of you really took up the discussion that I had started here: http://onebillionstories.com/8912/where-did-the-bible-come-from/I’m happy to come back to Ephesians and all the other verses once we agree on the validity of the book from which we pull those verses, make sense? We are quoting different books right now and that is just silly for any discussion that is trying to talk about the same book.

Cool, lets go.  Do it.  Prove to me that we must agree on a version.  Take any verse I have referenced or quoted at any point in the entirety of this discussion and show me how a translation you feel is correct alters my interpretation in any way.  Failing that, show me how any of the books the Catholic Church has added to the bible alters any of the interpretations I’ve provided.  

I’ll be honest with you Seth.  At this point I feel like your intention is to continue jumping from topic to topic at the surface level with no intention to actually engaged in the details. The reason I suspect this is, through out the entirety of this discussion you’ve never made any objection to quoted versions until now.  

So please Seth, show me that you’ve actually read my posts and show me what’s wrong with them.  Show me how a Catholic approved version of the text differers from what I’ve interpreted from the versions I believe to be more honest and correct.  

You started by positing a theology based on one text.  When Joe and I asked that you consider other texts, you kept pointing back to the first one.  When I showed how your interpretation could not even be found to align with that one single text, then you wanted to talk philosophy.  When we showed how even philosophically your theological stand point didn’t agree with the bible, then and only then did you challenge what bible we should be reading.  

So once again – please show exactly how and where the versions of the bible you believe to be correct differ on ANY of the verses we’ve discussed here.  

Double post was not intentional, had an issue posting.  

I will address those verses once we agree on the book we are discussing, make sense?

Your conclusion does not mesh with the rest of scripture, start with James. In the mean time, jumping over to the other thread so that we can make sure we are reading from the same book. Chuck is over there, hope you join. Cheers

No, in actuality – I’m not in the other thread.  

My point is that we cannot talk about the same book when we have never read each other’s books? Does that logic make sense to you?

We must first establish that we are reading from the same book before we  can talk about it; I think Aristotle would agree with me on this. 

Aristotle was a Greek who knew nothing of God so I appologise if I’m not overly drawn by appeals to his authority. No. We are not in agreement on what books belong in the bible or even how they got there. Yes – I hope – we are in agreement that all the books we’ve referenced here are in the bible. If we are looking at the same specific book – James for example – then yes, we can be in agreement on what we find in that book. If you have something you wish to bring to the discussion from the apocrypha, please do so. Otherwise it’s a change in subject and not one I’m willing to diverge to until you answer atleast some, I’ll even settle for one, of the questions I’ve asked here.

Chuck:

Your answer below just shed some light on what I think is a major difference between us; or perhaps not. 

If my Bible (1 book), has extra books (or chapters) within it, is it still the Bible? 

Chuck, we are not talking about books in the Bible, we are talking about 1 book called the Bible. Major difference. You and I have never read from the same 1 book, which we confusingly both call the Bible. Therefore, logic holds that if we talk about our personal Bibles, we are just talking heads. Therefore, let’s clear this issue up at the other forum so we can get back to this forum and on to Ephesians and James, fair?

I think I’m using my logic here, but maybe not, what do you think?

Seth,
I can’t speak for Chuck here but I would have no problem relaunching this whole discussion using a catholic approved translation (an offer I’ve made you before) thereby giving you every opportunity to demonstrate that it says something other then what it does say. (So long as its a translation that can be accessed online)

Seth,I can’t speak for Chuck here but I would have no problem relaunching this whole discussion using a catholic approved translation (an offer I’ve made you before) thereby giving you every opportunity to demonstrate that it says something other then what it does say. (So long as its a translation that can be accessed online)

Chuck, should we be looking at the Bible as a whole story, or verses within it to make points? 

I’m saying the bible translation you reference is flawed, or more accurately, heretical. 

Lets keep this simple. Open your catholic approved translation and read it. Show us what it says, as both Chuck and I have done (which are still waiting for you to directly respond to). I will open a catholic approved translation and see if what you are saying is correct or if what Chuck and I have been saying is correct and respond accordingly. If in the end it still says what it says, then you must deal with it. You make no bones about being a devoted follower of God who desires to be obedient to Him, so if His word the Bible really does mean what it says, which is what Chuck and I have been showing you, you will have to deal with it. Either submit to it or reject it, the option to keep going in the same direction as if it doesn’t say what it says is not an option.

I am laboring with every effort to stay on topic, that being “Faith and Works or…” You are the one who does not want to stay on topic and address our posts regarding this specific topic. That being said for the sake of this topic I have not problem playing in your pool. Open your catholic approved translation and read it. Show us what it says, as both Chuck and I have done (which are still waiting for you to directly respond to). I will open a catholic approved translation and see if what you are saying is correct or if what Chuck and I have been saying is correct and respond accordingly.

No. I am willing to use catholic approved translations please respond and demonstrate that it teaches something other then what we’ve shown you it teaches.

What are you afraid of, Seth? Open the Text and read it, lets see if what we’re saying is so.

Seriously? Your going ask that? Tell you what if you want to know which texts just look over the previous posts in this forum there are plenty to chose from. And use your preferred translation, I will respond from a catholic approved translation also.

Joe, why do you not want to agree with me on which Bible to read and believe in? Just curious.

For the sake of this topic by all means use your catholic approved translation, I will do the same.

We can’t talk Faith & Works until we agree on a Bible. http://onebillionstories.com/8912/where-did-the-bible-come-from/ I am drawing this conclusion using philosophy and logic. And I would be careful saying you will use a Catholic translation, based on our FB conversation. 

BTW why are you getting hung up on translation usage now after 128 posts? It’s your forum on your site, I’m willing to operate from a catholic approved translation such as the CPDV if that will make you comfortable, now please lets interact with the text. Please show me how this does not mean what it says CPDV Ephesians 2:8 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God.9 And this is not of works, so that no one may glory.

Since this is the forum on Faith & Works, I will state:

The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.”Joe, now that I have answered, I would appreciate it if interact with this forum, out of respect: http://onebillionstories.com/8912/where-did-the-bible-come-from/

Since this is the forum on Faith & Works, I will state:
——

The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
——–

Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
——–

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.”

——-
Joe, now that I have answered, I would appreciate it if interact with this forum, our of respect: http://onebillionstories.com/8912/where-did-the-bible-come-from/

Since this is the forum on Faith & Works, I will state:
——

The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
——–

Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
——–

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.”

——-
Joe, now that I have answered, I would appreciate it if interact with this forum, our of respect: 

To your first point: If as Eph 2:8-9 tells us a person is saved(note this is past tense) by Grace through Faith and this Faith is a gift not of works.  You responded with James 2:26 are you saying that James and Paul are disagreeing? Since it is my contention that James and Paul are in total agreement and looking at how James fits in to the overall context of the Bible it must be that Paul is making a very clear statement on HOW a person is saved and James is making a statement on WHAT SAVING FAITH looks like in a person’s life. To look at James any other way is say that the Bible contradicts itself. When clearly it does not.
__

To your second point: You mention Matthew 7:16 Is this to show that Matthew also disagreed with Paul? Since it is my contention that Matthew and Paul are in total agreement and looking at how Matthew fits in to the overall context of the Bible it must be that Paul is making a very clear statement on HOW a person is saved and Jesus is telling how one is to distinguish between a person with Faith and a person without Faith. 
__

To your third point: Joan of Arc, I’m a little confused because it appears she agrees with what I’ve been saying in that God saves us as a gift and He keeps us.

I asked 2 yes or no questions in my response to your post, I understand if you wish to expound on the answer but for clarity I’d appreciate it if they could begin with Yes or No. 

No because it does not in any meaningful way answer the questions I asked. Please try again.

top

This understanding of James is in complete agreement with Paul as well as the rest of the Bible.

willing?

Seth,

First, thank you for working from scripture.  Ultimately I think where we have landed is a disagreement in how one properly interacts with Scripture.  Oddly enough, I just got finished leading a lunch time bible study where I taught my group the inductive bible study method.  

The first rule of interpreting the bible is that the bible is inerrant in the autographs, internally consistent, and speaks truly on every matter upon which it speaks.  This means that the whole of scripture is unified.  There is no conflict and where we think we find conflict, we have actually found a place where we are interpreting incorrectly.  We must let Scripture interpret Scripture.  

This is why Joe and I have repeatedly challenged the doctrine you quote from James by asking how you square it with what is found in Ephesians.  

As I look back on the flow of our conversation here and particularly your statements in the post above, I am lead to the conclusion that you do not follow the same interpretive rule.  

So in the end, we are in agreement to the degree that you and I will not be able to come to any common ground on this specific doctrine. 

You seem to feel that our difference in doctrine is primarily caused by the difference in which version of the bible we consider to be complete and athoritative.  I actually think our disagreement is more centered on differences in what we think is the proper way of approaching scripture.  That said, I’ll make an offer. 

You’ve engaged the scripture directly in the post above via a methodology you consider to be correct.  I accept that and thank you.  I’ll jump over to your other forum and I’ll post information to explain how and when the bible was canonized, what books belong in the canon, and when extra books were brought into the canon. We can go from there.  Honestly I think it’s going to be a pretty short conversation.  I feel like ultimately it’s a historical argument of what God has done in church history and chances are we are going to have some dramatic differences on which historical context is athoritiative.  That said, I’ll go with you down that chain of conversation, but what I ask of you is – at or near the conclusion of that discussion I would like you to open another forum on the topic of proper interpretive methods.  I would suggest the following questions for the topic:

Is any source outside of the Scripture on par with the Scripture in establishing doctrine?

Is all of the bible true, and must we consider the whole council of scripture to understand what it teaches?

Is it appropriate to take verses out of context to support a previously established philosophical world view?

I’ll be working up a post for the other forum, let me know if you agree.  

You did ask us about squaring Paul with James, we did that repeatedly throughout this forum. We explained James many times, and we asked you about Paul many times and not once do I recall you interfacing the verses in Ephisians directly at all. So again I ask what is Paul saying in Ephisians if he’s not saying this:
Ephesians 2:8-9 CPDV

For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. And this is not of works, so that no one may glory.

Exactly Joe, your opinion explained James, along with 30,000 other Protestant denominations. Taking it to the other forum on Authority.

That is not my opinion it is a copy and paste of a verse from a catholic approved Bible please explain what Paul means if this is not what he is saying.

Your opinion Joe, your opinion toward what Paul is saying.

Who gave you authority to interpret scripture? 

Last post in this forum. 

All I did was copy and paste it from the CPDV Bible. That is NOT my opinion thats what IT SAYS.

Ephesians 2:8-9 CPDV

For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. And this is not of works, so that no one may glory.

If this is not what Paul is saying then tell us what he is saying.

other forum with Chuck now. 

All I did was copy and paste it from the CPDV Bible. That is NOT my opinion thats what IT SAYS.
—Ephesians 2:8-9 CPDV

For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. And this is not of works, so that no one may glory.__
If this is not what Paul is saying then tell us what he is saying.

If you want to stop arguing and have a dialogue you can join Chuck and I in the other forum. 

Once again, please stop referencing me in your requests to Joe.  This is the second time I’ve asked in this single comment thread.  

to be clear, Joe and I are friends, we live in the same town, go to the same church, etc.  So we are close friends.  That said, we don’t “work together”.  We share many common doctrines and such, and often we are making the same case, but we are not coordinating anything here.  That’s why I was saying that just because I’ve engaged with you on a different topic, that is not any reason to assume that Joe is going to do so as well – or visa versa.  

look forward to your response on the other forum

Grace is not some invisible, spiritual, substance that we need to have metered out to us in some manner. Grace is a word that describes a concept, that being unmerited, undeserved favor, or when a person gets what they don’t deserve. So when Paul tells us by Grace are you saved, he saying by unmerited favor are you saved and that this unmerited favor is applied to us by Faith and nothing else, further this faith by which this unmerited faovr is appied to us is a gift and this is not of works so that none may glory or have reason to boast in themselves. We already know what Christ will say to those who are trusting in their works done in the name of Christ, we see this clearly in
Matthew 7:22-23 CPDV

Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform many powerful deeds in your name?’ And then will I disclose to them: ‘I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity.’

Notice what these people are saying to Christ, first they say Lord Lord, when something is repeated like this in the Scriptures it basically an exclamation point, they are emphatic and sincere, but look agian at what they are emphatic about “did WE not…and perform many powerful DEEDS in your name?” To these who are trusting in their works done in the name Christ, He will disclose to them: “I have NEVER known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, or lawlessness. And if you Seth are trusting in your works in cooperation with Christ’s Grace to save you this is what He will say to you, I don’t want that for you and I know God does not want that for you I know what He did in sending His own Son to take your place. If however by His Holy Spirit, God grants that you believe by a gift of Faith and by this you trust in Christ in His perfect sinnless life that you could not live even on your best day, in His sacrificial sin forgiving wrath absorbing death on the cross, and His death defeating ressurection you will be saved.

Seth,

I’ve given, as has Joe a long and healthy discussion below as to what the bible actually teaches related to faith and works.  I honestly would like to thank you for offering up a challenge that has brought me through study and a deeper understanding of the scriptures we’ve discussed.  My view’s have not changed one bit, and I am more convinced of the doctrines I hold than ever, but I always appreciate the ways that God will teach, stretch, and grow me.  
What I do want to make clear though is, how the difference in our views effect our relationship to Jesus.  If you believe that your deeds are anyway effectual in any stage of your salvation, then at the root of it your works are about you.  You are religious in that you think it is at least in some part within your ability to approach God.  Any good work you do is about you getting closer to the state where God will accept you.  That is a selfish view that is counter to everything Christ lived and died for.  

We don’t save ourselves.  We can’t.  We are lost dead sinners, and every act we do that is motivated out of self love, or with a goal of improving ourselves is a filthily rag before a holy God.  He does not desire relationship with “selfmade men” who gussy themselves up and earn their due.  God wants worship and glory.  He sent his only Son to die on a cross to fully and completely atone for the debt we owe.  He gives us faith in who he is and what he has done and our only possible response is to fall on our knees in worship.  Our good works are a response.  They are us looking to the world and shouting from the hill top THIS IS WHO JESUS IS!  THIS IS WHAT HE HAS DONE!  THIS IS WHAT HE IS DOING!  We serve the poor because Jesus died to serve us.  We love our neighbor, not because we want God to see us do what he said and like us, but because God loves us and we have nothing BUT to respond in kind and have our heart overflow with joy in glorifying our God by loving those he’s placed around us as he has commanded.  

Seth, I am praying for you.  You are a smart, exuberant guy with a ton of energy.  You are ready to put your life to the task of the gospel and I want nothing more than for you to see and experience the love of Christ brought by his gospel.  I fear though, that as long as you see yourself needing to be cleaned up to get there, your always going to be trying to approach Jesus on your terms and always refusing to come to him on his.  

Actually your sounding like a protestant  

Chuck, I can’t say it any better than the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)

“Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
——

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”

ask a more specific question about the quote. I think it is very specific, tell me where you get lost. Supernatural, justified, poverty….?

“grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith” – what does that mean?  what does the word “known” mean in this context?  

“reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee”

Does this mean it is by seeing the work of God in our life that gives us confidence we are saved?  What does guarantee mean here?  Does that mean that we must do good works to be assured?  

“grace is at work in us” – what does that mean?  How is “grace working”?  Wouldn’t that be the Holy Spirit that is in work in us?  

Our definition of grace appears to be very different.  I’ve offered mine and I’ll do so again.  Could you give me yours?

grace:  the unmerited favor of God.  

You want to know how it works out in my life? 

I go pray at Mass. I ask for God’s wisdom in my daily actions, and then I go live for Christ. 

I don’t see how thinking your acts have a function of meriting God’s favor cannot contain at least some degree of self interest.